Author Topic: lucas and haley are underrated  (Read 8030 times)

Offline swindellbc

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Re: lucas and haley are underrated
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2013, 12:56:19 PM »
I can see your point in S1, but not in s5 because Lindsey was also her friends. Friends who are aware of other friends being cheated on/lead on and doing nothing at all to help the situation are awful friends. Haley would not be my favorite character if she had not spoken up. I don't agree that friends should say nothing when someone is doing another dirty. Maybe I'm super sensitive about it because I was cheated on before and in my situation, I had an amazing friend who first when to my ex and tried to get him to stop being a douche and when that did not work, she told me. When someone you know is being mistreated, it is your business imo. Not being her business did not stop one of my best friends from telling me her own brother was cheating on me, so I don't think Haley telling Luke to make a decision was wrong.

And also, I just don't plain agree. I personally think people who are Leyton/Luke fans think Haley was in the wrong but if the roles were reveresed they'd have a different response.


HaleyScott23, I have hypothetical for you. What if Nathan cheated on Haley and Lucas knew? Would Lucas be wrong for confronting his brother and telling him he's wrong for cheating on Haley? Would he be wrong or considered judgmental for getting involved? Would you tell him he should butt out, mind his own business and allow his brother to continue cheating on his BFF? If that was the situation, I don't see any fan bashing Lucas for that or calling him judgmental for looking out for his friend. I don't see this scenario as any different. I also don't think Leyton fans would have cared if it was Brucas sneaking around on Peyton and Haley telling him  to stop. They probably would be cheering her on.


Also Haley was not the only person who thought Luke's actions were wrong, if Luke felt what he was doing was ok, he would not have been hiding it like coward. She was just being a good friend and forcing him to admit he was wrong.

Offline HaleyScott23

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Re: lucas and haley are underrated
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2013, 01:11:49 PM »
HaleyScott23, I have hypothetical for you. What if Nathan cheated on Haley and Lucas knew? Would Lucas be wrong for confronting his brother and telling him he's wrong for cheating on Haley? Would he be wrong or considered judgmental for getting involved?

No, of course not. I completely agree with you. And I do agree with what Haley did and I would've done the same thing. I said that in my previous post. However, as you're meddling into somebody else's issues, I do think that's butting in even if it's for the best of reasons, as would be the ones you've presented me. Sometimes you need to be judgmental and butt in for the people you love, that's why I say I'd do the same thing Haley did. Does that make any sense? I have a hard time expressing myself correctly, LOL.

Offline Northlights

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Re: lucas and haley are underrated
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2013, 01:26:21 PM »
Thats because you obviously prefer Luke, I don't. So I did have an issue with him judging her, who she had feelings for was not up for his approval. He had no right at all, imo, to cop an attitude with her. I don't care what Nate did to him, that did not give Luke the right to give Haley attitude over it.

Lucas believed at the time that Nathan is only playing Haley as a way to mess with him. And he was, in the very beginning. I understand what you are saying, but I would be upset too if my best friend was involved with the bane of my existence and if she was keeping it a secret from me. When Lucas gave her a hard time about being a cheerleader and spending time with Nathan after his accident, he was being irrational, hypocritical and wrong.

But it’s not like Haley wasn’t judgmental at first about him and Brooke. I think it may have been a deleted scene, but I remember some conversation between the two of them when Haley questioned Lucas’ relationship with Brooke saying they had nothing in common while at the same time asking him to give Nathan the benefit of the doubt.

As for Haley being judgmental when it came to LP (season 5), what bothered me most was not what she said, but mostly the way she said it. With a “holier-than-though”, condescending attitude. Like she never kissed another guy, lied to Nathan about spending time with him, and went on a tour with him…almost destroying her marriage in the process. The same thing goes when she judged Lucas in 403 without even bothering to know all the facts. And Lucas was one of a few people who never judged her for her actions in season 2 and was supportive of her when she returned.

Haley was also pretty judgmental of Nathan’s sexual past, even though she knew he was a player before they got together. And I never really understood why was she mad at Chris in season 3 when she chose to work with him and to go on a tour. He helped her and yet she acted like he was responsible for all the bad thing that were happening between her and Nathan at the time.

But Haley lied to Lucas for his own good, so that Nathan and his friends would leave him alone. Had she told Lucas and he wouldn't let her do it.

I get that, and we as an audience knew that…but Lucas didn’t. That’s why his reaction was understandable to me. As opposed to his reaction after his accident when he was simply wrong.

Offline HaleyScott23

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Re: lucas and haley are underrated
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2013, 01:39:36 PM »
But it’s not like Haley wasn’t judgmental at first about him and Brooke. I think it may have been a deleted scene, but I remember some conversation between the two of them when Haley questioned Lucas’ relationship with Brooke saying they had nothing in common while at the same time asking him to give Nathan the benefit of the doubt.

But there Haley just gave her own opinion and wasn't mean to Lucas or had an attitude towards him. She said that and everything remained the same.

As for Haley being judgmental when it came to LP (season 5), what bothered me most was not what she said, but mostly the way she said it. With a “holier-than-though”, condescending attitude. Like she never kissed another guy, lied to Nathan about spending time with him, and went on a tour with him…almost destroying her marriage in the process. The same thing goes when she judged Lucas in 403 without even bothering to know all the facts. And Lucas was one of a few people who never judged her for her actions in season 2 and was supportive of her when she returned.

I agree with you that she was judgmental. But people seem to constantly bring up the fact she kissed Chris (which we never got to know if it was true or not, btw) and how because of that she had no right in calling LP out because of their cheating. To me Haley was wrong because she was butting in somebody else's business and nothing more. Now if she made the same mistakes in the past doesn't matter. That shouldn't prevent anyone from calling out other people who are doing the same, IMO.

Haley was also pretty judgmental of Nathan’s sexual past, even though she knew he was a player before they got together. And I never really understood why was she mad at Chris in season 3 when she chose to work with him and to go on a tour. He helped her and yet she acted like he was responsible for all the bad thing that were happening between her and Nathan at the time.

I agree with the Chris part, not so much with the Nathan one. She has a right to be affected by it, even after knowing he was a player. Now had she kicked him out or broke up with him because of it, that had been overreacting. But being mad that her husband slept with one of her best friends and never told her about it is normal. I would be too.

Offline swindellbc

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Re: lucas and haley are underrated
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2013, 01:40:58 PM »
No, of course not. I completely agree with you. And I do agree with what Haley did and I would've done the same thing. I said that in my previous post. However, as you're meddling into somebody else's issues, I do think that's butting in even if it's for the best of reasons, as would be the ones you've presented me. Sometimes you need to be judgmental and butt in for the people you love, that's why I say I'd do the same thing Haley did. Does that make any sense? I have a hard time expressing myself correctly, LOL.

See I don't think questioning someone's actions is the same as judging them. I see judging with a negative connotation. I see it more as putting them down because you don't like what they are doing.  For me its the difference of Haley in S5 towards Lucas and Peyton is S3 towards Haley. Haley was genuinely concerned for Luke and his choices and the way they were affecting others including more than one of her closest friends. OTOH, Naley's marriage was non of  Peyton's business, when she chose to but in, Haley was doing everything to she could to earn Nathan's forgiveness. It was not like Haley was actively and intentionally trying to hurt Nathan and she was trying to put a stop to it. Unlike Haley, Peyton was being a judgmental bitch and was doing more to harm Naley than to help, unlike Haley who was trying to help all 3 of her friend by stopping Luke's stupidity. So when I look at those situations, I cannot place the same word on the those vastly different scenarios. If Peyton's actions in s3 are judgmental, then Haley's actions in s5 don't deserve to be seen the same way imo. Because there is a huge difference. Haley was looking out for her friends, Peyton was being selfish judgement biatch.

Offline HaleyScott23

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Re: lucas and haley are underrated
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2013, 01:44:09 PM »
I agree again, swindellbc. Haley's judgmental behaviour, specifically in S5, can't be put on the same level as the situations you mentioned. I never got to say that in my previous posts, but I was talking only about Haley, not comparing her behaviour to Lucas' or Peyton's.

Offline swindellbc

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Re: lucas and haley are underrated
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2013, 01:45:34 PM »
I don't think Haley was judging Chris, I think she resented him coming back into her life. When she left the tour, she wanted to put all of that behind her and focus on Nathan, but Chris returning made it harder for her. She was not happy to see him but I did not see her judging him. Haley didn't really want to work with him, it was a test Nathan wanted her to pass because he had trust issue. I think Haley's issues were really that she allowed him to affect her marriage and he was part of the reason her marriage was where is was. Also, Chris might have meant well but he did cause  her drama too and she did not consider him a close friend.

Offline swindellbc

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Re: lucas and haley are underrated
« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2013, 01:50:13 PM »
I agree again, swindellbc. Haley's judgmental behaviour, specifically in S5, can't be put on the same level as the situations you mentioned. I never got to say that in my previous posts, but I was talking only about Haley, not comparing her behaviour to Lucas' or Peyton's.

For me, I just don't see her judging something/someone every time she dislikes something and expresses her opinion on it. I just feel the word judgmental is being overused, not necessarily by you but in general when it comes to Haley. Haley is the only character never allowed to express her opinion or to be bothered by something. The other poster has basically taken every situation where Haley has had a difference of opinion and claimed it was an example of her being judgmental and I don't agree with that assessment.

Offline swindellbc

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Re: lucas and haley are underrated
« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2013, 01:52:37 PM »
No, of course not. I completely agree with you. And I do agree with what Haley did and I would've done the same thing. I said that in my previous post. However, as you're meddling into somebody else's issues, I do think that's butting in even if it's for the best of reasons, as would be the ones you've presented me. Sometimes you need to be judgmental and butt in for the people you love, that's why I say I'd do the same thing Haley did. Does that make any sense? I have a hard time expressing myself correctly, LOL.

If Luke would not be wrong, then why is Haley wrong for "butting in to their business"? I just don't consider that being judgmental.

Offline HaleyScott23

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Re: lucas and haley are underrated
« Reply #54 on: February 25, 2013, 01:53:21 PM »
I don't think Haley was judging Chris, I think she resented him coming back into her life. When she left the tour, she wanted to put all of that behind her and focus on Nathan, but Chris returning made it harder for her. She was not happy to see him but I did not see her judging him. Haley didn't really want to work with him, it was a test Nathan wanted her to pass because he had trust issue. I think Haley's issues were really that she allowed him to affect her marriage and he was part of the reason her marriage was where is was. Also, Chris might have meant well but he did cause  her drama too and she did not consider him a close friend.

Yeah, I agreed as a way of saying she wasn't really correct with him, but she wasn't judging him, just being cold and kind of stupid. I think Chris only affected NH's marriage because, in a way, Haley let him. That's why I think she should've treated Chris differently when he came back, because that was her own issue. Had she been like that with him all the way throughout the tour and her behaviour wouldn't have been so shocking, but it was kind of odd how they seemed like at least friends in 2x21 and 2x22 and then, all of a sudden, she's giving him the cold shoulder. I understand why she did it, that was her way of showing Nathan Chris meant nothing and that she was over the whole music deal, but she could've talked to him about it and tell him just that.

Offline HaleyScott23

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Re: lucas and haley are underrated
« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2013, 01:55:33 PM »
If Luke would not be wrong, then why is Haley wrong for "butting in to their business"? I just don't consider that being judgmental.

I guess that's the issue. The world "judgmental" has been thrown around and I don't even know what it means anymore. LOL. But I think there's a very thin line between "butting in to their business" and being judgmental. One usually leads to the other. I need to stop for a while and reacess what I think means being judgmental. This is driving me nuts  ;D

Offline swindellbc

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Re: lucas and haley are underrated
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2013, 02:12:15 PM »

But it’s not like Haley wasn’t judgmental at first about him and Brooke. I think it may have been a deleted scene, but I remember some conversation between the two of them when Haley questioned Lucas’ relationship with Brooke saying they had nothing in common while at the same time asking him to give Nathan the benefit of the doubt.


Considering how he treated Brooke in S1, it was clear that her concern was legitimate. She was not judging them, she was genuinely curious in what he saw in Brooke because she did not think Brooke was his type. If I'm not mistaken, she also knew of his feeling/attraction Peyton. He validated those concerns, not judgements, when he cheated on Brooke with Peyton. Unlike Luke who was not genuinely curious or concerned about Haley's feelings, he only cared about his own towards Nathan.


As for Haley being judgmental when it came to LP (season 5), what bothered me most was not what she said, but mostly the way she said it. With a “holier-than-though”, condescending attitude. Like she never kissed another guy, lied to Nathan about spending time with him, and went on a tour with him…almost destroying her marriage in the process. The same thing goes when she judged Lucas in 403 without even bothering to know all the facts. And Lucas was one of a few people who never judged her for her actions in season 2 and was supportive of her when she returned.

The only time I hear of this infamous tone and attitude and accusations are from Leyton fans who are pissed she was not TeamScrewLindsey. Haley did not pretend anything. She never acted like she was above acting that way. She never said she was better than him or Peyton. She just told him he was wrong because he was. The way he was treating Lindsey and lying to her was wrong. PERIOD. She told him he should consider the importance of marriage before he jumps into. Saying that is not denying her own faults. Unless that was part of the dialogue in that scene, what Haley did in S2 was irrelevant. And personally, while Haley was also guilty of kissing another while in a relationship, its nowhere near the same. Chris/Haley are nothing like Leyton, there was never that depth of feelings or attractions and there was not a history of behavior like Leyton cheating Luke's GF. I am not saying that Haley kissing Chris was ok it was wrong and she paid for it.  But just because she kissed Chris does not mean she has to ignore Luke cheating on one of her closest friends. Just because she screwed up doesn't mean she has to support him doing his girl dirty. And lets not pretend that Luke was a supportive friend and she turned her back on him. Haley was still their supporting him 100%, she just wanted him to make sure he knew what he wanted. Considering she still supported him with his book, bonded with him before the wedding, she was still very supportive of him during that time. The only thing she did not support was him leading both girls on.


Haley was also pretty judgmental of Nathan’s sexual past, even though she knew he was a player before they got together.

The only time she questioned Nathan's past was when she was hormonal and pregnant. She got upset and then quickly got over it. The way you make it sound, she was mad at him and judging for weeks and that is just not what happened.

Offline Northlights

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Re: lucas and haley are underrated
« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2013, 03:51:52 PM »
For me, I just don't see her judging something/someone every time she dislikes something and expresses her opinion on it. I just feel the word judgmental is being overused, not necessarily by you but in general when it comes to Haley. Haley is the only character never allowed to express her opinion or to be bothered by something. The other poster has basically taken every situation where Haley has had a difference of opinion and claimed it was an example of her being judgmental and I don't agree with that assessment.

Just to be clear, I did not mention Haley's treatment of Chris in the context of her being judgmental. I was simply curious as I did not understand her behavior.


Considering how he treated Brooke in S1, it was clear that her concern was legitimate. She was not judging them, she was genuinely curious in what he saw in Brooke because she did not think Brooke was his type. If I'm not mistaken, she also knew of his feeling/attraction Peyton. He validated those concerns, not judgements, when he cheated on Brooke with Peyton. Unlike Luke who was not genuinely curious or concerned about Haley's feelings, he only cared about his own towards Nathan.

That's where we disagree. I did see some genuine concern on Lucas' part for Haley in that situation. He even warned her multiple times to be careful and comforted her when she was crying because of it. I guess you see it as Lucas looking only for his interest. Or judging her with negative connotation as you put it.

The only time I hear of this infamous tone and attitude and accusations are from Leyton fans who are pissed she was not TeamScrewLindsey. Haley did not pretend anything. She never acted like she was above acting that way. She never said she was better than him or Peyton. She just told him he was wrong because he was. The way he was treating Lindsey and lying to her was wrong. PERIOD. She told him he should consider the importance of marriage before he jumps into. Saying that is not denying her own faults. Unless that was part of the dialogue in that scene, what Haley did in S2 was irrelevant. And personally, while Haley was also guilty of kissing another while in a relationship, its nowhere near the same. Chris/Haley are nothing like Leyton, there was never that depth of feelings or attractions and there was not a history of behavior like Leyton cheating Luke's GF. I am not saying that Haley kissing Chris was ok it was wrong and she paid for it.  But just because she kissed Chris does not mean she has to ignore Luke cheating on one of her closest friends. Just because she screwed up doesn't mean she has to support him doing his girl dirty. And lets not pretend that Luke was a supportive friend and she turned her back on him. Haley was still their supporting him 100%, she just wanted him to make sure he knew what he wanted. Considering she still supported him with his book, bonded with him before the wedding, she was still very supportive of him during that time. The only thing she did not support was him leading both girls on.

I'm not a Leyton fan. Not even close ;D I couldn't stand Lucas and especially Peyton during season 5.

I agree that Haley had the right to tell him he was wrong, although I did find the way she said it annoying and condescending. If you did the same mistake in the past it still does give you the right to express your opinion about it, but not to preach. That's why it was relevant to make the comparison. But my point was that Lucas did not judge her when she was the one that made the similar mistake. In fact he defended her to Nathan and tried his best to reassure her about her crumbling marriage. I'm not saying that Haley or Lucas were right or wrong, just that in similar circumstances Haley did judge and Lucas did not.

The only time she questioned Nathan's past was when she was hormonal and pregnant. She got upset and then quickly got over it. The way you make it sound, she was mad at him and judging for weeks and that is just not what happened.

I wasn't only referring to that situation. She got mad in season 2 when Taylor dropped by, and the whole internet porn thing, Peyton's pictures...

Offline HaleyScott23

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Re: lucas and haley are underrated
« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2013, 04:02:28 PM »
I wasn't only referring to that situation. She got mad in season 2 when Taylor dropped by, and the whole internet porn thing, Peyton's pictures...

As I was the one also mentioning this, I don't think you can say she was mad. She was just in shock after learning her husband's first had been her sister. After that she went home and even said she'd overreacted. She never mentioned it again or judged Nathan for that. As for the whole porn thing and Peyton's pictures, I'm totally on her side. I'd be hurt as well if I found out my boyfriend was looking at porn and had pictures of his ex after she got out of the shower saved on his computer. But I guess that's more a question of one's ideals more than anything.