Author Topic: Whose To Blame Nathan or Haley  (Read 15595 times)

Offline leahlovesnaley

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Re: Whose To Blame Nathan or Haley
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2010, 07:05:03 PM »
^ Well, I think that the show painted him as the innocent one, cause we mostly just got his POV.  Haley was hard to read in season 2, so it was hard to be on her side.  We didn't see her as super upset until season 3.  They just kept showing drunk, angry, insecure Nathan and it was easy to feel bad for him. 

And also, I think that Nathan giving up High Flyers makes it seem like Haley was wrong to go on tour.  But I don't think she was.  And Nathan ended up going to High Flyers anyway, which was better for them both in the long run.


Offline the.swiss.cheese

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Re: Whose To Blame Nathan or Haley
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2010, 07:31:57 PM »
Oh gosh, the one thing I hate about this story was we didn't see Haley's heartbroken moments.. only Nathan's. Season 3 barely even gave us a glimpse.

I blame Nathan for asking Haley to marry him at 16. hahahah. She was not ready for it, and it was clear by how she reacted to chris and then the tour... I think it took those moments to realize that it was something she wanted. Without that struggle, I don't think they'd have made it as a married couple.

I blame Haley for lying to Nathan repeatedly about Chris. She clearly had some feelings for him/what he offered, and she did a lot of things wrong in how she approached the tour.

I blame the show for losing contact with Haley and making her appear heartless when she questioned the marriage and how fast they moved into that. It was so so SO valid for her to feel that way, but it appeared to out of the blue..

Offline maryllin_18

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Re: Whose To Blame Nathan or Haley
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2010, 09:25:31 AM »
And I love Nathan, don't get me wrong, he's my 2nd favourite, but I just think people paint him more innocent in S2 than he actually was.
What do you mean? I mean obviously we were supposed to feel sorry for him, he was vulnerable and insecure and he wanted his wife back but I'll actually say that to me, Nathan was indeed innocent, specially after driving a thousand miles to see her and getting a "we rushed things" from Haley. Yes, Nathan made a mistake with the ultimatum but Haley.. She really annoyed me because she made a mistake and in part she wasn't able to admit it until the beginning of season 3. Leaving Nathan and Naley out of this. Haley left without saying goodbye, not even to her best friend.

And I'm ok with bitchy Peyton in season 3, I get that she was going through a rough patch with the Ellie debacle and at that point Haley was a pretty good example of "People always leave".

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haleymyself

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Re: Whose To Blame Nathan or Haley
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2010, 01:01:14 PM »

What do you mean? I mean obviously we were supposed to feel sorry for him, he was vulnerable and insecure and he wanted his wife back but I'll actually say that to me, Nathan was indeed innocent, specially after driving a thousand miles to see her and getting a "we rushed things" from Haley. Yes, Nathan made a mistake with the ultimatum but Haley.. She really annoyed me because she made a mistake and in part she wasn't able to admit it until the beginning of season 3. Leaving Nathan and Naley out of this. Haley left without saying goodbye, not even to her best friend.

And I'm ok with bitchy Peyton in season 3, I get that she was going through a rough patch with the Ellie debacle and at that point Haley was a pretty good example of "People always leave".

It's what Steph said, really. He was seen as the innocent one in this arc, because we've only seen his POV. We never got to see how Haley felt during the time she was on tour and I'm 100% sure that she felt guilty/depressed/sorry at some point, we just didn't get to see it and, for that, she was immediately stereotyped as "The Bitch". Nathan was wrong with the ultimatum and I understand he said it as it was the only thing he found in that moment to keep the woman he loved and I blame Nathan for the ultimatum even though I understand where he was coming from.  But, still, that doesn't make it right. We all have our impulsive moments and we cannot take our responsability through the window just because we weren't with a cool head. And another thing I always sort of blamed Nathan for: expecting Haley had to give up her dreams for him. I know he did it for her, I know he gave up High Flyers, but just because he made it, it doesn't mean she has to make the same thing. Of course that's what she should have done, it would be a great demonstration of their love for each other, but I always felt like Nathan thought: "I gave up my dreams for her, she must do the same for me." and it wasn't like that. That's why I say people paint Nathan more innocent than he actually was, in IMHO.

Don't get me wrong: CLEARLY Haley was wrong for lying to Nathan about Chris, for leaving him without saying a word and for her behaviour when he went to visit her. I'm not saying Haley's the innocent one, that's very far away from the truth. I was just saying that I'd like to see more of Haley's POV. We never really got to understand what was going through her head to do the things she did.

Offline maryllin_18

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Re: Whose To Blame Nathan or Haley
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2010, 02:24:54 PM »
It's what Steph said, really. He was seen as the innocent one in this arc, because we've only seen his POV. We never got to see how Haley felt during the time she was on tour and I'm 100% sure that she felt guilty/depressed/sorry at some point, we just didn't get to see it and, for that, she was immediately stereotyped as "The Bitch". Nathan was wrong with the ultimatum and I understand he said it as it was the only thing he found in that moment to keep the woman he loved and I blame Nathan for the ultimatum even though I understand where he was coming from.  But, still, that doesn't make it right. We all have our impulsive moments and we cannot take our responsability through the window just because we weren't with a cool head. And another thing I always sort of blamed Nathan for: expecting Haley had to give up her dreams for him. I know he did it for her, I know he gave up High Flyers, but just because he made it, it doesn't mean she has to make the same thing. Of course that's what she should have done, it would be a great demonstration of their love for each other, but I always felt like Nathan thought: "I gave up my dreams for her, she must do the same for me." and it wasn't like that. That's why I say people paint Nathan more innocent than he actually was, in IMHO.

Don't get me wrong: CLEARLY Haley was wrong for lying to Nathan about Chris, for leaving him without saying a word and for her behaviour when he went to visit her. I'm not saying Haley's the innocent one, that's very far away from the truth. I was just saying that I'd like to see more of Haley's POV. We never really got to understand what was going through her head to do the things she did.

Oh, I have to disagree with you in a few things. I don't think Nathan wanted her to give up her dream for music. I'm sure he didn't. He encouraged her to do it, he gave the keyboard, he was there for her. Once again, Nathan wanted her to give up on Chris. The problem was not her going on tour. The problem was her going on tour with Chris and without him. He never thought that "just because I gave up on HF, she should give up on her music", he wanted her to pursue her music, he wanted her to let Chris go.

And I know that Haley was hurting, I'm sure of it even though we didn't get to see it but at the same time.. She didn't call (I know she left a message and he deleted her but still if she was really hurting as much as I believe she was she should have gartered the courage to communicate with him) and again I really don't like Haley's decision to go without saying goodbye. I know that Nathan's ultimatum was not right, and it might have pushed her away, but Nathan admitted that he made a mistake he said that he was sorry and she said no. And when Lucas goes to visit her in NY.. there are a lot of things that bug me with what she says, it's like she has totally gave up on them..

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haleymyself

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Re: Whose To Blame Nathan or Haley
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2010, 02:58:53 PM »
^^ I agree with everything you say and you're right. It looked like she gave up on them and that really pissed me. Like I said before, Haley pissed me in S2 with everything she did and said... But:

I know Nathan was always supportive of her music and he didn't want her to give up her dreams for him. I know that. (God, I'm so bad at expressing myself that it hurts! lol) What I was trying to say is that when Haley told him she was invited to go on tour, you can't really detache Chris from the tour/Haley's dream from Chris. And Nathan knew that, either she went on tour with Chris or she didn't go at all (since Chris was one of the guests or whatever). So, by giving her the ultimatum, Nathan direct or indirectly, was making her choose between him and music, her dream. And it's there that I think he thought: "If I gave up HF for her, she must give up music for me, too."

Plus, I always saw that the only two feelings Haley had for Chris were envy (of what he had) and gratefulness (for improving her music). I never believed she had romantic feelings for him, like she stated so many times. But then again, I totally understand Nathan: he had just found out his wife kissed the creep and she just said in the following second she was going on tour with him. I understand him, but he was still wrong. Like Haley was the entire season.

Offline the.swiss.cheese

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Re: Whose To Blame Nathan or Haley
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2010, 09:10:30 PM »
My heart soared when I found out that Nathan kept a box of all her news clippings. He was so proud of her. He loves that girl on some crazy level... it astounds me that we haven't lost that yet.

Haley is mostly at fault in this situation. You can't really get around that because Nathan bought her the keyboard, encouraged her to sing live, etc. His reasoning for not going to High Flyers was because he wanted to help her with her dream (since he already knew what his was). It had nothing to do with him expecting her to give up music. He even told Lucas he wanted her to get that same feeling he got while he played ball.

The mistake occurred when Nathan wanted to be the one to help her, so him seeing another GUY help her in a way he couldn't sparked jealousy. Haley did not help that jealousy as she had lied to him multiple times (about recording and later kissing him).

Haley made a lot of mistakes, and she knew that... and she realized how important Nathan was to her during that tour. The reason I could never fully blame her was because I blame the two of them for being stupid and getting married so early. It put all of these extra pressures on Haley that made her run. She was envious of Chris' freedom... because she was feeling trapped. Every decision she would now have to make included someone else. She was no longer just independent Haley, and that would freak anyone out at 16 with a dream.

Nathan loved it because he had just lost his family unit and looked at Haley as some form of salvation. It was healthy for him to live without her and learn to live without her guidance. It made him stronger in that relationship.

The ultimatum was Haley's excuse for leaving. If she knew Nathan at all, she'd know he didn't mean it. She left because she wanted to, and she loved singing on that tour. It just took some time for her to realize that she loved Nathan more..

I hate that we lost her POV in this story and only really saw Nathan, but even if we had seen it, I still think Nathan would have gotten the majority of sympathy.




Offline that-was-bruliant

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Re: Whose To Blame Nathan or Haley
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2010, 12:32:30 PM »

The ultimatum was Haley's excuse for leaving. If she knew Nathan at all, she'd know he didn't mean it. She left because she wanted to, and she loved singing on that tour. It just took some time for her to realize that she loved Nathan more..

wow. I couldn't have summed that up better myself.
great post!

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Offline SofiaM

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Re: Whose To Blame Nathan or Haley
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2010, 06:09:01 AM »
My heart soared when I found out that Nathan kept a box of all her news clippings. He was so proud of her. He loves that girl on some crazy level... it astounds me that we haven't lost that yet.

Haley is mostly at fault in this situation. You can't really get around that because Nathan bought her the keyboard, encouraged her to sing live, etc. His reasoning for not going to High Flyers was because he wanted to help her with her dream (since he already knew what his was). It had nothing to do with him expecting her to give up music. He even told Lucas he wanted her to get that same feeling he got while he played ball.

The mistake occurred when Nathan wanted to be the one to help her, so him seeing another GUY help her in a way he couldn't sparked jealousy. Haley did not help that jealousy as she had lied to him multiple times (about recording and later kissing him).

Haley made a lot of mistakes, and she knew that... and she realized how important Nathan was to her during that tour. The reason I could never fully blame her was because I blame the two of them for being stupid and getting married so early. It put all of these extra pressures on Haley that made her run. She was envious of Chris' freedom... because she was feeling trapped. Every decision she would now have to make included someone else. She was no longer just independent Haley, and that would freak anyone out at 16 with a dream.

Nathan loved it because he had just lost his family unit and looked at Haley as some form of salvation. It was healthy for him to live without her and learn to live without her guidance. It made him stronger in that relationship.

The ultimatum was Haley's excuse for leaving. If she knew Nathan at all, she'd know he didn't mean it. She left because she wanted to, and she loved singing on that tour. It just took some time for her to realize that she loved Nathan more..

I hate that we lost her POV in this story and only really saw Nathan, but even if we had seen it, I still think Nathan would have gotten the majority of sympathy.

That post completely summed up my feelins on the subject.
Credit: LJ

Offline hilarie.love

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Re: Whose To Blame Nathan or Haley
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2010, 07:30:52 PM »
Yeah DEFINITELY Haley. Number of reasons.
It's where she starts getting annoying too.
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Offline that-was-bruliant

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Re: Whose To Blame Nathan or Haley
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2010, 04:50:34 PM »
^ exactly. I started to not like her character as much as I did before.

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othislife13

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Re: Whose To Blame Nathan or Haley
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2010, 09:16:54 PM »

Quote
Yeah DEFINITELY Haley. Number of reasons.
It's where she starts getting annoying too.

Quote
^ exactly. I started to not like her character as much as I did before.

yeah season two i was annoyed by her decision but she redeemed herself in my eyes when she came back.

Offline the.swiss.cheese

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Re: Whose To Blame Nathan or Haley
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2010, 09:23:09 PM »
As much as I have always liked Haley as a character, I always thought the marriage storyline didn't do much for her character. I always miss the quirky girl who got attacked by birds in season 1 hahaha.

I love NH.. I do, but I always loved Haley most in season 1 (pre Nathan).

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Re: Whose To Blame Nathan or Haley
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2010, 10:26:17 PM »
I solely blamed Haley and wanted to kick her ass up until Nathan called her and told her not to come home. Then I wanted to strangle both of their necks (even though I did understand Nathan's reasoning).

othislife13

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Re: Whose To Blame Nathan or Haley
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2010, 10:36:10 PM »
^^^

oh god as soon as he said dont come home beacuse i dont want you two im pretty sure that was the first instant wehere i could have shattered the tv i wanted to kick their fictional characters behinds