Author Topic: Brooke and Haleys relationship  (Read 13925 times)

Offline swindellbc

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Re: Brooke and Haleys relationship
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2013, 12:55:55 PM »

As for Nathan/Lucas, I think what you said about LH applies to them. NL became more family than friends, but I never looked at them as BFFs.

Maybe this wasn't directed at me, but I'm just putting my 2 cents in as far this goes. I'm not trying to diminish BH or any other friendship by ignoring history. It's actually because of history/story that I think they're not each other's BFF's. Really close and good friends? Yes, but BFFs? No. I can't see it now and I didn't see it then.

But all of this just really comes from how we understand and interpret the show. I, for one, can't just ignore the off-set things that have influenced this show greatly and how they affected a lot of the things that happened on-screen, particularly said friendships. Maybe it's wrong of me to do so, but I refuse to do it.

Lets just agree to disagree. I saw BH as BFF just like BP were. BP were not always the best of friends either, their fallout outs and lags in friendship did not negate their BFF status so I don't get why a lag in BH would mean they couldn't still be best friends considering that is how they saw each other since s3. I can relate to BH more because of how they were written. I personally don't see them rarely seeing each other during the college years as indicative of a lesser friendship. I love my best friend(we've been BFFs since middle school) but we were separated when we chose to go to different schools, we didn't talk as much and rarely saw each other. We were still great friends though.

Also the show told us that BP were best friends forever, they also told us the BH were best friends. I don't get why one would ignore the show's writing of one but take the other as gospel. If we were going by only what was written/shown, I still don't see how one would be the superior friendship.

Also my statement was not towards you personally, there was another statement in this thread that basically said that LH and BP were superior and that they basically didn't care about the writing BH. For me that's crap and one should not even participate in a discussion about story when they chose to ignore how the story was written just because they don't like it.

For me personally, I don't care what happened backstage and in my opinion backstage has nothing to do with the story. Backstage BS doesn't change the fact that certain things happened onscreen and that became a fact for the show. I personally think its stupid to say that the backstage stuff is what really matters and not the onscreen story. That would be like me saying that all LP were really did not matter (that BL will always truly be the love story and Brooke is the one Luke really wanted) because BL would have continued to be the story had Chad not cheated on Sophia. I don't ignore LP's whole story and history because of crap that happened behind the scenes. Ignoring the written friendship and status of BH is basically doing what I just said.

Offline HaleyScott23

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Re: Brooke and Haleys relationship
« Reply #76 on: January 31, 2013, 01:38:41 PM »
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Also the show told us that BP were best friends forever, they also told us the BH were best friends. I don't get why one would ignore the show's writing of one but take the other as gospel. If we were going by only what was written/shown, I still don't see how one would be the superior friendship.

It's not that. I don't ignore that BH are great friends. My interpretation of the show over the years is that LH/BP will always be closer than BH, no matter how close Brooke and Haley are. It's not really ignoring the show, it's just a question of interpretation. As I said earlier, the 6 years that we have of intense LH/BP (even if there was BH along the way) mean more to me and are closer to my heart than 3 years of intense BH where the other two aren't even there anymore and that obviously affected the way the BH friendship was developed after that. Bottom line is: when all the original characters were on the show, I think it was pretty clear that LH and BP were the BFFs friendships. And I think BH only reached that status once LP left and there was no other choice than to make them BFFs, because they were the last 2 main girls left and they had already built a relationship in the early years. But I respect and understand that other people don't see it like that.

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For me personally, I don't care what happened backstage and in my opinion backstage has nothing to do with the story. Backstage BS doesn't change the fact that certain things happened onscreen and that became a fact for the show. I personally think its stupid to say that the backstage stuff is what really matters and not the onscreen story. That would be like me saying that all LP were really did not matter (that BL will always truly be the love story and Brooke is the one Luke really wanted) because BL would have continued to be the story had Chad not cheated on Sophia. I don't ignore LP's whole story and history because of crap that happened behind the scenes. Ignoring the written friendship and status of BH is basically doing what I just said.

Agree to disagree then. I think it makes all the sense in the world. I feel like it's a question of not going with the flow.

Offline swindellbc

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Re: Brooke and Haleys relationship
« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2013, 05:07:42 PM »
It's not that. I don't ignore that BH are great friends. My interpretation of the show over the years is that LH/BP will always be closer than BH, no matter how close Brooke and Haley are. It's not really ignoring the show, it's just a question of interpretation. As I said earlier, the 6 years that we have of intense LH/BP (even if there was BH along the way) mean more to me and are closer to my heart than 3 years of intense BH where the other two aren't even there anymore and that obviously affected the way the BH friendship was developed after that. Bottom line is: when all the original characters were on the show, I think it was pretty clear that LH and BP were the BFFs friendships. And I think BH only reached that status once LP left and there was no other choice than to make them BFFs, because they were the last 2 main girls left and they had already built a relationship in the early years. But I respect and understand that other people don't see it like that.

Agree to disagree then. I think it makes all the sense in the world. I feel like it's a question of not going with the flow.

And I feel its a question of ignoring/changing history because you don't like the end of the story. Just because one does not like it does not change the fact that it was what it was. In the OTH universe, BH were best friends(not just close friends) and had been since their senior year of high school. And to say the BP were the best of friends for those 6 years is a fallacy. They had many periods were they were not friends at all and did not even speak. And during part of that time, BH were still close friends. And honestly, I personally did not see BH as closer post s6. They were not suddenly thrown together because they were the only two of the core left. That ignores what was stated and written. They were always close and always there for eachother, it was only in Peyton's absence that Brooke realized how Haley had always been there (even when Peyton wasn't) which suggests that Brooke felt closer to Haley. What fans feel is truly irrelevant to what is fact on the show. Its not even about perception when the show has been clear on the facts of what happened.

Offline HaleyScott23

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Re: Brooke and Haleys relationship
« Reply #78 on: January 31, 2013, 05:22:03 PM »
And I feel its a question of ignoring/changing history because you don't like the end of the story. Just because one does not like it does not change the fact that it was what it was. In the OTH universe, BH were best friends(not just close friends) and had been since their senior year of high school. And to say the BP were the best of friends for those 6 years is a fallacy. They had many periods were they were not friends at all and did not even speak. And during part of that time, BH were still close friends. And honestly, I personally did not see BH as closer post s6. They were not suddenly thrown together because they were the only two of the core left. That ignores what was stated and written. They were always close and always there for eachother, it was only in Peyton's absence that Brooke realized how Haley had always been there (even when Peyton wasn't) which suggests that Brooke felt closer to Haley. What fans feel is truly irrelevant to what is fact on the show. Its not even about perception when the show has been clear on the facts of what happened.

I still think it's pretty much a question of perception as far as these friendships go. Just like you say I ignore history because I don't like the way it was written, I can also say you don't ignore it because you did like the way things were written. And I disagree about the bolded part. Just because they had their fights and bad moments doesn't mean they stopped being best friends. But then again I think this is a question of perception while you believe it's a fact. If we can't agree on that, there's nothing else to be said, really.

TV shows and movies talk to people in different ways. It's just like Literature. Again, I'm not ignoring the fact the show says BH are best friends. I'm very aware of that. Now do I agree with that approach? No and that's because of what the show itself told me when all the main characters were still there. And when they were all there, they clearly focused way more on LH and BP and BH clearly didn't belong in the BFFs category.

Offline swindellbc

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Re: Brooke and Haleys relationship
« Reply #79 on: January 31, 2013, 05:50:53 PM »
I still think it's pretty much a question of perception as far as these friendships go. Just like you say I ignore history because I don't like the way it was written, I can also say you don't ignore it because you did like the way things were written. And I disagree about the bolded part. Just because they had their fights and bad moments doesn't mean they stopped being best friends. But then again I think this is a question of perception while you believe it's a fact. If we can't agree on that, there's nothing else to be said, really.

TV shows and movies talk to people in different ways. It's just like Literature. Again, I'm not ignoring the fact the show says BH are best friends. I'm very aware of that. Now do I agree with that approach? No and that's because of what the show itself told me when all the main characters were still there. And when they were all there, they clearly focused way more on LH and BP and BH clearly didn't belong in the BFFs category.


Actually the show told us that Brooke considered both of them her best friend in s3 so to suggest that BH were only written that way after s6  is untrue. They showed us them close and supporting eachother a lot throughout the years. And them telling us that BH were best friends was no different then the way they told us that BP and LH were best friends. Also despite crappiness and a resurgence of BP in s4, Haley and Brooke were still close and it was clear that Haley considered BOTH Brooke and Luke her BFF which is we she chose them as James' godparents and not LP (who were a couple, and also Haley was friends with Peyton). BH was solidified also with the pregnancy. Was it partially to tease the possibility of Brooke being pregnant? Yes, but it was also done to show the closeness between Brooke and Haley. If she didn't consider her her BFF she would not have shared such a huge moment/secret with her. She would have taken it alone by herself. It they wanted to tease a possible pregnancy for both without making it a BH moment, they could have easily shown them both taking a test with only one coming out positive but the audience doesn't know which one.

As for ignoring history, I don't ignore any history on this show. Even things I hate, I acknowledge because when discussing the show, I take the facts presented on the show as fact. Example: In the BLP triangle, I preferred BL (though I ultimately decided both women deserved better than fickle lucas), but I would never negate that it was clear from the beginning that LP were going to be a major couple and possible endgame. Even though I felt Jeyton and Brucas were better matches and just better couples, I don't ignore the face that Leyton always wanted eachother more. I feel like perceptions not based on facts of the show a better fit in a thread about what we wanted to happen on the show and not a discussion about what actually happened on the show.

Offline HaleyScott23

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Re: Brooke and Haleys relationship
« Reply #80 on: January 31, 2013, 06:26:36 PM »

Actually the show told us that Brooke considered both of them her best friend in s3 so to suggest that BH were only written that way after s6  is untrue. They showed us them close and supporting eachother a lot throughout the years. And them telling us that BH were best friends was no different then the way they told us that BP and LH were best friends. Also despite crappiness and a resurgence of BP in s4, Haley and Brooke were still close and it was clear that Haley considered BOTH Brooke and Luke her BFF which is we she chose them as James' godparents and not LP (who were a couple, and also Haley was friends with Peyton). BH was solidified also with the pregnancy. Was it partially to tease the possibility of Brooke being pregnant? Yes, but it was also done to show the closeness between Brooke and Haley. If she didn't consider her her BFF she would not have shared such a huge moment/secret with her. She would have taken it alone by herself. It they wanted to tease a possible pregnancy for both without making it a BH moment, they could have easily shown them both taking a test with only one coming out positive but the audience doesn't know which one.

Then we're going back to the beginning and agreeing to disagree, because I don't see how BH were portrayed as best friends as much as BP and LH were during the first six seasons. And I won't get to the "supporting each other" thing because I believe we mainly saw Haley supporting Brooke and not so much the other way around and that's basically one of the main reasons why I don't buy the fact BH are best friends. Because that friendship just isn't balanced, based on "facts". But as I said before, let's not get into that. I must also say that Haley choosing Brooke as Jamie's godmother doesn't mean Brooke's her best friend. Had Haley chosen Brooke over Lucas and we could discuss it, but she didn't do it. Of course the next person closest to Haley (after Lucas) is Brooke so it made all the sense in the world that she chose her for Jamie's godmother. That would make some sense if we were discussing who's closer to Haley: Brooke or Peyton? Since it's actually a sort of Brooke vs Lucas, it makes zero sense.

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I feel like perceptions not based on facts of the show a better fit in a thread about what we wanted to happen on the show and not a discussion about what actually happened on the show.

Geez, for the billionth time: LH and BP being best friends is just as much of a "fact" as BH being best friends. After that, the way the show talks to you is what defines what you think, because we were given possibilities and different scenarios. I think that's not what you're getting or, at the very least what we're disagreeing on.

Offline swindellbc

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Re: Brooke and Haleys relationship
« Reply #81 on: January 31, 2013, 06:42:42 PM »
Then we're going back to the beginning and agreeing to disagree, because I don't see how BH were portrayed as best friends as much as BP and LH were during the first six seasons. And I won't get to the "supporting each other" thing because I believe we mainly saw Haley supporting Brooke and not so much the other way around and that's basically one of the main reasons why I don't buy the fact BH are best friends. Because that friendship just isn't balanced, based on "facts". But as I said before, let's not get into that. I must also say that Haley choosing Brooke as Jamie's godmother doesn't mean Brooke's her best friend. Had Haley chosen Brooke over Lucas and we could discuss it, but she didn't do it. Of course the next person closest to Haley (after Lucas) is Brooke so it made all the sense in the world that she chose her for Jamie's godmother. That would make some sense if we were discussing who's closer to Haley: Brooke or Peyton? Since it's actually a sort of Brooke vs Lucas, it makes zero sense.
I never said it was Brooke vs Lucas because her closeness and friendships with both were solidified. I personally think that Haley considered both her BFF. Honestly, its not uncommon for people to choose a solid couple over a single friend when choosing godparents so her choosing Brooke was huge. And I never have suggested that LH was lesser or that its a competition, even though I felt a shift with LH when LN got closer.  And honestly, I must have missed all these instances of LH with Lucas supporting Haley. A lot of LH was devoted to Luke's Scott issues and POV for his triangle. I remember very few moments of him being Haley's shoulder to lean on so they were no more lop sided than BH. The truth is that when NH happened, Haley leaned more on her husband than anyone while also maintaining very close friendships with Lucas and Brooke and supporting/bonding with him. I can't think of many LH scenes that were actually about Haley and what Haley was going through. In comparison to BH, I honestly feel they are about even.

Geez, for the billionth time: LH and BP being best friends is just as much of a "fact" as BH being best friends. After that, the way the show talks to you is what defines what you think, because we were given possibilities and different scenarios. I think that's not what you're getting or, at the very least what we're disagreeing on.

See this is a difference, I NEVER suggested that LH were not best friends, I said that I felt they became more family than anything. As for BP I never said that they were not best friends either, I just said at times they were not and that was expressed in dialogue and I said at the end Brooke felt closer to Haley because those were Brooke's words. I agree the show allows for perceptions but at the same time when they want something known they have it stated. We can view BP and BH differently based on they way they were written but we cannot negate the fact that Brooke herself said/considered them both her BFF and that Brooke herself felt closer to Haley over time.

Offline HaleyScott23

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Re: Brooke and Haleys relationship
« Reply #82 on: January 31, 2013, 06:53:00 PM »
I never said it was Brooke vs Lucas because her closeness and friendships with both were solidified. I personally think that Haley considered both her BFF. Honestly, its not uncommon for people to choose a solid couple over a single friend when choosing godparents so her choosing Brooke was huge. And I never have suggested that LH was lesser or that its a competition, even though I felt a shift with LH when LN got closer.  And honestly, I must have missed all these instances of LH with Lucas supporting Haley. A lot of LH was devoted to Luke's Scott issues and POV for his triangle. I remember very few moments of him being Haley's shoulder to lean on so they were no more lop sided than BH. The truth is that when NH happened, Haley leaned more on her husband than anyone while also maintaining very close friendships with Lucas and Brooke and supporting/bonding with him. I can't think of many LH scenes that were actually about Haley and what Haley was going through. In comparison to BH, I honestly feel they are about even.

I don't agree with that at all. LH's friendship was a lot more balanced than BH's and had I time to make a list of the moments Lucas was there for Haley vs the moments Brooke was there for her, Lucas would win by far. I'm sure of it. They talked about Lucas' issues and Haley's issues quite often as well. With BH, that was far from being the truth. And I'm not trying to turn this into a competition despite what I said earlier about Brooke vs Lucas. I thought we were talking about them and who we thought was closest to Haley and that obviously led me to compare both characters and their moments with Haley.

See this is a difference, I NEVER suggested that LH were not best friends, I said that I felt they became more family than anything. As for BP I never said that they were not best friends either, I just said at times they were not and that was expressed in dialogue and I said at the end Brooke felt closer to Haley because those were Brooke's words. I agree the show allows for perceptions but at the same time when they want something known they have it stated. We can view BP and BH differently based on they way they were written but we cannot negate the fact that Brooke herself said/considered them both her BFF and that Brooke herself felt closer to Haley over time.

Then I misunderstood you. I agree with you on that.

Offline swindellbc

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Re: Brooke and Haleys relationship
« Reply #83 on: February 01, 2013, 09:33:26 AM »
We have to agree to disagree on Lalely because while they were close, they were lopsided. It was almost always about Luke. Just like with BH, Haley got the occasional POV or mention but it was more about him and his life. If you even do have the time, I'd love a list. Honestly not being snarky or sarcastic, I just don't remember many moments that were truly Lucas supporting Haley's dream/feelings/struggles without his own being also mentioned. Maybe I would appreciate the friendship more if I saw them written down.In my focus on all things Naley, I could have just missed them. Or maybe it was the fact that Lucas bugged me and I tuned out his constant brooding that I missed the occasional moment where a Laley scene was actually about Haley and not Lucas.

Offline HaleyScott23

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Re: Brooke and Haleys relationship
« Reply #84 on: February 01, 2013, 10:26:24 AM »
We have to agree to disagree on Lalely because while they were close, they were lopsided. It was almost always about Luke. Just like with BH, Haley got the occasional POV or mention but it was more about him and his life. If you even do have the time, I'd love a list. Honestly not being snarky or sarcastic, I just don't remember many moments that were truly Lucas supporting Haley's dream/feelings/struggles without his own being also mentioned. Maybe I would appreciate the friendship more if I saw them written down.In my focus on all things Naley, I could have just missed them. Or maybe it was the fact that Lucas bugged me and I tuned out his constant brooding that I missed the occasional moment where a Laley scene was actually about Haley and not Lucas.

Yeah, I'm curious as well because my general perception is that the LH friendship was more balanced than BH. It's likely that I'll start rewatching OTH with my roommate and maybe then I can actually come up with a sort of list while I watch the show again. When I do it, I'll post it here, maybe then we can see if there's any truth to what we've discussed so far ;D

Offline swindellbc

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Re: Brooke and Haleys relationship
« Reply #85 on: February 01, 2013, 11:45:40 AM »
Yeah, I'm curious as well because my general perception is that the LH friendship was more balanced than BH. It's likely that I'll start rewatching OTH with my roommate and maybe then I can actually come up with a sort of list while I watch the show again. When I do it, I'll post it here, maybe then we can see if there's any truth to what we've discussed so far ;D


That sounds like an awesome plan. Let me know when you do watch. I really don't have an issue being proven wrong, I just honestly don't remember. In all my re watching, I tend to just focus on Naley.

Offline HaleyScott23

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Re: Brooke and Haleys relationship
« Reply #86 on: February 01, 2013, 06:19:42 PM »

That sounds like an awesome plan. Let me know when you do watch. I really don't have an issue being proven wrong, I just honestly don't remember. In all my re watching, I tend to just focus on Naley.

Yeah, that happens to me too ;D So maybe my perspective is a little skewed as well.